DfES Margaret Hodge Chat Event - 19th May 2003 TRANSCRIP

Moderator says: Hi, welcome to this on line discussion with Margaret Hodge. Margaret is here and will start answering your questions in the next few minutes. In the meantime please continue to send in your questions.

Alistair Clark: When will FE lecturer's salaries be comparable to school-teachers and HE lecturers? Some of our courses are taught in schools and universities.
>Margaret Hodge replies: Government is not the employer in FE or HE. However, the extra £1.2 billion investment in FE over the next three years should enable colleges to substantially narrow the pay gap with schools. We have made record investments in the sector and have made it clear that the new and consolidated money over the next three years should lead to improvements in FE lecturers' salaries. The employers and unions now need to look forward and develop modernising pay arrangements that will enable colleges to deliver the pay structures the sector needs to attract, retain and reward good staff.

Graham Taylor: The 1st theme set out in 'Success for All' is widening choice. Why are we, as a successful FE College and work based training provider restricted from working with employers and students who live/ work 'out of area'? There are key issues of choice, quality and a regional skills agenda here which (some of) the 47 local LSCs with there rigid local targets are failing to address. This is hampering growth, quality and the achievement of the Government's laudable but challenging targets.
>Margaret Hodge replies: Giving all learners and potential learners access to the widest possible range of high quality provision must be a priority for all of us and certainly is for the government and LSC. As the planning and funding body for post-16 learning, the LSC's main job, and particularly that of local LSCs, is to meet the needs of everyone in their local communities - especially learners and employers. There is no absolute ban on 'out of area' provision, indeed this has been a feature of FE and work based learning provision for many years. Where colleges can make a valuable contribution to meeting skills needs the planning and funding system should help and not obstruct this. However, we can't give a blank cheque to every college to expand and we do not want to return to the days when untramelled competition and uninhibited franchising led to poor quality provision and unacceptable practices. I agree there is much to do to ensure regional and sectoral skills interests are built into local plans and reflected in funding decisions. Our national Skills Strategy to be published next month will address these issues.

Sue Turnbull: Due to Medical conditions I have been advised to re-train. I am taking a teaching course in the post 16 sector enabling me to teach in FE colleges. I have decided to undertake an assignment about Inclusive learning which will include the DDA Act. I would appreciate your own views on inclusive learning in FE establishments. Any information that you can provide will be treated as confidential and only used in my assignment.
>Margaret Hodge replies: First let me welcome the fact that you clearly see your situation as an opportunity to re-focus your life and participate in an area of education that is vital to the nation's future. The FE sector is central to the Government's desire to raise skills levels and qualifications, to improve our skills base and enable us to have a prosperous economy. Inclusive learning is vital to achieving the Government's vision of a learning society where everyone has the opportunity to go as far as their efforts and talents will take them. That is why we have introduced legislation outlawing discrimination within the education system. That is why we have given the Learning and Skills Council a statutory duty to promote equality of opportunity in all it does or funds. But compliance with legislation is only part of the answer. We must continue to work hard with all key stakeholders in an effort to raise levels of awareness and understanding, to challenge entrenched attitudes and explore different approaches, including those originally articulated in the report 'Inclusive Learning'. If you would like further information, please contact Paul Turner Head of our Post-16 Equal Opportunities Policy Team (Tel: 0114-2594730; e-mail paul.turner@dfes.gsi.gov.uk) or Kit Roberts the LSC's Assistant Director, Equality and Inclusive Learning (Tel: 024-7682-3421; e-mail kit.Roberts@lsc.gov.uk ).

Graham Kneebone: Dear Margaret While I agree that helping disabled students to reach their full potential at University, with disability advisors etc is great. I would like to point out that this can lead to even more frustration in the job market when faced with getting at job, not being able to get a job which fully matches the students abilities given that disabled people are less likely to be employed then people without disabilities and those that are probably under employed. Why does the government not help the transition from university to employment more, ie giving the university disabilities advisors a role in supporting ex students in the first year in a work, as very few if any companies have disability advisors in the work place? The adjustments at work are not necessary the same as those at university. The Access to work scheme can help but does not full address the issues as it makes a one off assessment, of your disabilities, to minimise them in the work place, while want is needed is the education of the employer to your strengths and for them to unitizes them fully
>Margaret Hodge replies: I fully understand how frustrating this is for many people. Bringing discrimination in the labour market to an end will take time. We have got a good legislature framework in place. We now need to work to challenge preconceptions and prejudices and change the culture in the work place. The Higher Education Funding Council For England (HEFCE) is doing quite a lot of work in this area. It funds the National Disability Team which administers projects that are targeted at assisting disabled students. It also funds a number of projects with an equal opportunities theme, under its Innovations programme, which was set up to improve links between higher education and employers. The mentoring schemes at Staffordshire and Coventry are particularly interesting, for more information see http://www.innovations.ac.uk.

Rowland Foote: Dudley College is one of the largest and most successful General Further Education Colleges in the UK. How do you anticipate post 16 providers managing their mission of academic and vocational provision, with the focus on specialisation and widening of participation, is the White Paper a watershed for academic provision in General FE Colleges? Dudley College had an Average Point Score of 180.7, an overall achievement rate of 82% last year with 87% retention for some 31,000 qualifications.
>Margaret Hodge replies: Our aim is to ensure that every college focuses on what they do best. We will not prescribe solutions from the Centre. We want local learning and skills councils working with local stakeholders to review their local provision and decide what is best to widen participation, extend the curriculum offer and raise standards. This is not a one size fits all policy. Where there is good quality provision for 16 to 19 year olds in general FE colleges we want to build on that. But equally we know that the younger cohort of adult learners do better if they have broad learning programmes and strong pastoral support. That may well imply distinct or discrete facilities for the 16 to 19 year old age cohort but that could well be in a general FE environment.

Steve Maine: The Info about Modern Apprenticeships has largely reached the young people with plenty of then wanting this type of training. Most are having difficulty finding an employer to take them on as a Modern Apprentice. Is the DFES planning any campaigns to attract employers to Modern Apprenticeships, particularly the smaller local companies rather than the large multinationals? I feel that more time and effort should be put into this on a national scale but aimed at the local area, say the local TV coverage areas.
>Margaret Hodge replies: Over the next year the Learning and Skills Council will be focusing its market on engaging employers of all sizes in Modern Apprenticeships. At a national level they will be working on joint marketing activities with the sector bodies (Sector Skills Councils and National Training Organisations) that develop Modern Apprenticeships to meet their sectors business needs. Specifically the manufacturing, engineering, health and social care, retain and construction sectors will be the main focus of the marketing activities. The LSC will also be undertaking joint initiates with employer organisations (as an example the CBI and IoD) to raise awareness and promote the benefits of Modern Apprenticeships and will also work with the trade unions (e.g. TUC) to encourage their members to use this route to gain valuable qualifications. The 47 local Learning and Skills Councils will be carrying out local marketing programmes aimed specifically at the sectors in their area where there are skills shortages and recruitment issues that need to be addressed.

Graham Taylor: Why is it proposed that different provider types (work-based providers, FE Colleges, 6th Form Colleges) have different quality targets? The customer wouldn't want this
>Margaret Hodge replies: Firstly let me assure that we want judgements about institutional performance to be made on a fair and reasonable basis. We think that a range of success measures are needed in order to effectively capture learning outcomes for all types of post-16 learning. The Department and the LSC are currently discussing the use, definitions, and consistence of success measures with key partners and the outcomes will be announced shortly. We are introducing floor targets this year. They will be different for different types of provider to take account of different starting position and the levels we expect them to reach by 2005/06. I think that it is right and reasonable to expect all institutions to continuously strive for excellence and improvement - to ensure better outcomes for learners, employers and their communities. In the case of providers whose performance is unsatisfactory I will expect to see radical action and fast improvements to bring them up to at least a minimum acceptable standard.

Stephen FRY: At what stage do we stop talking qualifications and start talking work based competence?
>Margaret Hodge replies: We need to talk both. Competence in the workplace is clearly necessary. However, individual employees may well change jobs and they will need to demonstrate their competence to other employers. This is best done through nationally recognised qualifications. We are looking at how we can better marry the two by having work based competences which can be recognised in an improved national framework of qualifications. This means individuals will meet the specific skill needs of an employer but will gain the transportable qualifications that ensure their continued employability.

Peter Webb: When will the new Teaching Frameworks be introduced into FE?
->Margaret Hodge replies: The Standards Unit within the DfES will be trialling innovative best practice materials and associated teacher/trainer training in June/July. There will be larger scale pilots of these new approaches from September 2003. I am confident that these new teaching and learning frameworks will provide inspiring new resources and methods for teachers and trainers.

Alistair Clark: What is the government's policy regarding the expansion of FE and the provision of vocational training at the workplace?
>Margaret Hodge replies: We are providing funding for increased numbers of both young people and adults in FE over the next three years - essentially if we are to meet our targets for achievement, but also to meet the aspirations of people for learning. We would expect over time an increased proportion of FE provision for adults to be provided in the workplace, at a time and place which suits learners and their employers. Many colleges are already doing a good job.

Beryl Pratley: One of the main risk factors identified in local strategic planning appears to be the likelihood of government policy changes. How confident are you that the overall strategy of your Department is right, and that providers can plan to meet existing LSC targets without micro-interference? Can ministers learn to be hands-off?
>Margaret Hodge replies: We hope we have got the policy right but we live in a fast-changing world and we must always be prepared to respond appropriately to change. I can tell you that the last thing we want to do is micro-interfere!! However we now all accept that one way to raise standards is to open teaching and learning to public account, that is as true of post-16 education as it is of education in schools. That does require accountability and that can sometimes look like interference. Sometimes we have to intervene to eradicate poor performance. However we constantly seek better ways of ensuing accountability with minimum bureaucracy and minimum interference. We have recently introduced big changes to cut bureaucracy and we will do more in this area over the coming period.

Paul Bloor: Colleges are keen to work collaboratively with schools to extend the curriculum available to 14-19 year olds. In some areas there is scope to formalise these partnership arrangements by the creation of 'community colleges' where schools and colleges offer a cohesive and coherent curriculum across a geographical/catchment area. To what extent does the Minister support the formalising of collaborative arrangements in ways such as this?
>Margaret Hodge replies: Greater collaboration between schools, and between schools amd colleges, is central to our 14-19 agenda in order to provide a broad curriculum for young people. We do not wish to be prescriptive from the centre about what organisational forms this should take. In some areas there may be differentiated institutions working collaboratively in a relatively informal partnership. In others there may be more formal joint ventures. We are looking at a range of designs for local organisational models - but in the end you have to do what's right locally.

Bakar Ali Mohammed: You will able to assist me getting a sponsorship to study in the UK as an international student?
>Margaret Hodge replies:The Department for Education and Skills does not provide grants to overseas students. But there are two organisations which will be able to offer help and advice: The details are as follows: British Council, Information Centre - Tel: 0161 957 7755; website address is www.britishcouncil.org UKCOSA (The Council for International Education) - Tel: 0207 354 5210, Mondans to Fridays only 1pm - 4pm; website address is www.ukcosa.org.uk

Jon Bryan: Dear Margaret One of the problems that I have working in a college teaching A levels is that the funding we get for an A level student is still about £1000 less than a school gets to educate that young person. When our results are compared with those of Schools, this funding deficit is rarely reported, yet it clearly affects the results. Is this deficit going to be tackled as School and College funding is still not equal?
>Margaret Hodge replies: There is a funding gap between school, sixth forms and colleges. Over the 3 years starting in August 2003 college core funding per student will rise by 6% on average in real terms, with higher increases for high performing colleges. This will enable a substantial narrowing of the gap, while maintaining the Real Terms Guarantee for school sixth forms.

Nadya Kassam: When asked in the Commons I think about topping up from Foundation Degrees to Honours, you initially said this couldn't be done but the marketing materials from the DfES, for both employers and learners, both say 'yes you can top-up, in fifteen months'. Who/which/what is right?
>Margaret Hodge replies: What I said was that Foundation Degrees should be regarded as vocational higher education qualifications in their own right. They should not simply be seen as a credit towards an Honours Degree. At the same time if individuals want to progress to an Honours Degree from a Foundation Degree they should be able to do so. So 'yes' you can top up, and 'yes' you can get a recognised and important qualification by completing your Foundation Degree course and getting an FDA or an FDSc.

Holly Lowe: What would be your suggesstions to encourage more people to enter into the childcare profession
>Margaret Hodge replies: The Government is investing massive resources into creating more and better quality childcare so we need more childcare professionals. We also want more men to enter the childcare profession and we would like more individuals from minority ethnic communities to work in childcare. We have invested considerable resources into childcare education and training. We are also running a strong marketing and advertising campaign. A career in childcare is very fulfilling and we are successfully expanding the workforce.

Stephen FRY: How can we make more funding available to support e-learning for SMEs?
>Margaret Hodge replies: E learning can provide the just in time solutions that SMEs seek and we expect learndirect to be very popular with small employers. In 2003-4 we expect 200,000 employees of SMEs to enrol on learndirect courses and LSC funding has been made available to support uptake in these numbers. But we also want to encourage SMEs to fund their own learning and the Department is currently working on a Skills Strategy which is looking at ways in which we can encourage this.

David Barratt: At what point will WBL and FE funding streams become convergent and provide all learners with an "EQUAL OPPORTUNITY" to participate in lifelong learning. Current LSC policy (and previous FEFC policy) was to fund WBL 16-25 rather than include adults. FE funding is 16-65 and is therefore discriminatory, creates barriers to access, participation and lifelong learning to many adults who do not want to take up COLLEGE BASED courses. This is further exacerbated by the LSC (and previously FEFC) to fund some qualifications via FE but not through a work based route, why is this? The same qualifications are delivered by both FE and WBL but funding is only available through FE?
>Margaret Hodge replies: The LSC has already signalled its willingness to fund work-based learning providers for basic skills provision for adults, by agreement with the local LSC. The LSC is able to fund NVQ and other provision for adults through a wide range of providers including non-college providers - and it will use this flexibility to improve the quality of provision. But remember FE colleges don't just deliver in college buildings - they do also deliver in the workplace and we want to encourage that. On age limits, we are considering the case for opening up Modern Apprenticeships to suitably qualified or experienced adults, in line with the MA Advisory Committee recommendations.

Hazel Lowe: How much of a revolution in training provision will come about as a result of the forthcoming Skills Strategy White Paper?
>Margaret Hodge replies: You will have to make your own judgement when we publish our strategy. I can assure you that we are determined to make a difference. We know that raising skills is vital to raising productivity and enhancing growth and to creating a more inclusive society. We hope that our strategy will herald a step change in the skills levels in the workplace and among the labour force.

Guy Stirling Lee: Do you have any evidence to show that the Teacher Pay Initiative actually motivates teachers to do a better job?
>Margaret Hodge replies: We do have evaluation evidence which suggests that TPI has encouraged colleges to reduce casualisation and focus more on the qualifications and professional updating of their staff. That must be good for teacher motivation. We are convinced that linking an element of reward to teacher performance must have an impact on motivation.

Alastair Thomson: A)How will the skills strategy recognise that, in an ageing society, the boundaries between skills for life and for work are increasingly fluid?
>Margaret Hodge replies: Learning is as much about developing skills and confidence for life as it is about developing skills and expertise for employment. It is important that everyone - including older people - is able to undertake the learning they want, for the reasons they want. The skills strategy will reflect that.

Roger Pigott: Are there any plans to raise or eradicate the upper age limit of Modern Apprenticeships ?
>Margaret Hodge replies: We are currently considering the case for opening Advanced MAs to suitably qualified or experienced adults, in line with MA Advisory Committee recommendations. The MA age limit has been relaxed for selected client groups and sectors in Wales and Scotland and we are therefore looking at their experience, together with evaluation of current pilots in England (including the Rail Skills Award, launched in November 2002), and the availability of resources.

Pauline Williamson: Madam The recent reports of the ASE, the Royal Society, and the House of Commons Select Committee on Science in Education all support wholeheartedly the concern felt by Science Technicians in education that the pay scales are appalling and in no way reflect the level of skills required and demonstrated by these technicians. Furthermore there is no career structure for technicians and recruitment of personnel with the necessary skills is becoming increasingly difficult. Do you agree that unless the matter of inadequate pay and lack of career structure are suitably addressed in the very near future, the quality of Science education will suffer drastically despite all the improvements laid down in the new Curriculum? Perhaps you could outline how the Government intends to rectify this situation, and how soon this is lilkely to happen.

Paula Callam: Dear Margaret, I am a science technician in a secondary school in Norwich in Norflk. My question is about the pay and career structure for science technicians. Given that the Association for Science Education, the Royal Society and the Commons Select Committee for Science and Technology all rpeort that there is a short fall of approximately 4,000 science technicians in education and that the pay structure and training oportunities are so poor that there is little to attract people to these jobs, what is the government going to do about it? It was particularly galling to read the consultation document on the role of support workers in schools and see that we got only a passing mention wiht no recogniotion of our specific skills but an expectation that we would take on additional roles on a salary that it is not possible to live on without additional supplementation.
>Margaret Hodge replies: In answer to your question Paula and Pauline's question. We are doing a number of things to strengthen the position of science in schools and colleges. Through additional funding, we estimate that schools should have the capacity to recruit at least 50,000 additional support staff during this Parliament - although will depend on decisions made by individual schools. Some of the new staff will be science technicians. The Association for Science Education (ASE) and CLEAPSS have developed a new draft career structure and an induction unit for technicians. The ASE is now testing out these proposals with LEAs and schools to make sure they are practical and will meet needs on the ground. This is part of the 'Re-modelling the School Workforce' reforms which aim to strengthen the role of support staff and release teachers from routine non-teaching tasks. Under the ASE/CLEAPSS proposals, senior, or lead technicians would have a much enhanced role, using their technical expertise to support the teacher directly in the classroom. DfES is also mapping, the qualifications and training currently available for school support staff. We will look at levels and types of qualifications available and ensure that support staff have their prior learning recognised. This will also help inform the development of a new career structure for science technicians, and the training and development they will need to progress from one level to another. Continuing Professional Development (CPD) for science technicans will be provided by the national network of science learning centres. Over the initial few years of the network, the courses and associated costs will be part-subsidised by the DfES and the Wellcome trust. First regional centres are scheduled to open in Autumn 2004. In addition, for post-16 learning, our new Standards Unit will also be trialling best-practice teaching and learning materials and teacher training in AS/A2 biology, chemistry and physics in June/July. The trials will lead to larger scale pilots from September. These new resources are part of Theme 2 of Success for All (our investment and reform strategy for FE) and will give a real boost to science teaching and to the vital support work by science technicians. Our new Standards Unit will also be trialling new best practice teaching and learning materials and teacher training in AS/A2 biology, chemistry and physics in June/July. The trials will lead to larger scale pilots from September. These new resources are part of theme 2 of "Success for All" (our investment and reform strategy for FE) and will give a real boost to science teaching and to the vital support work by science technicians.

Graeme Wadlow: How do your policues try to help those who have a learning disability, such mine Auditory Processing Disorder (APD www.apduk.org) which is a prime cause of dyslexia, with other more serious imlications. We are discrimated against in the work place, education system, and benefits system. We are always overlooked by all government Departments. How is yours different?
>Margaret Hodge replies: The provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act, which from September 2002 have been extended to include providers of post-16 education and related services, make it unlawful to discriminate against disabled students and other disabled people. This legislation must be implemented in full from September 2005. Wholly privately funded post-16 providers and providers of work-based training are already covered by Part 3 of the Act which relates to goods, facilities and services. In addition, the Learning and Skills Council (LSC), to have due regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity between persons who are disabled and persons who are not. Similarly, when securing the provision of education and training, the Council must have regard to the needs of persons with learning difficulties and/or disabilities. Dyslexia, and associated conditions, are recognised by the Council as requiring appropriate assessment and the development of appropriate strategies of learning and support for the individual. If this is not happening in your case, I invite you to write to Dr Beverley Burgess, Programme Manager, Learners with Learning Difficulties and/or Disabilities, LSC National Office, Cheylesmore House South, Quinton Road, Coventry CV1 2WT (Tel: 024-7682-3361), who will raise it with the relevant local LSC and, through them, the appropriate providers/agencies.

David Barratt: When AMA programmes are the Governments "Flag Ship" Qualification for WBL and workforce development why do you keep putting BARRIERS to achievement in the way? The imposition of Key Skills Tests and Technical Certificates can only further reduce the achievement rate for this type of learning programme, currently standing at 20% for FMA and 24% AMA according to National LSC figures of August 2002. These achievment rates are poor and can only reduce with the imposition of KS tests and TCs. Why do it?
>Margaret Hodge replies: Although still too low, achievement rates are now higher than this and rising. From the outset, Modern Apprenticeships were designed to provide a preparation for working life, not just for the first job. That's why frameworks include a range of knowledge and skills which complements the specific job competence assessed through the NVQ. This model of apprenticeship has been consistenly supported by employers' views as expressed to the Skills Task Force and the Cassels committee; and is the norm in Europe. Technical certificates and key skills help to prepare young people for their careers. We don't want to narrow our expectations of learning in the work-based route, but we are looking at the key skills tests and how we can lift barriers which may artificially reduce achievement levels, without compromising on the need for apprentices to acquire key skills.

Ben Marshall: I am a manager at an FE College in central London. I run several Teacher Training courses including courses in basic skills. At present the requirements for basic skills in Numeracy teachers are for the teachers to have a minimum of a level 4 qualification in Numeracy. Teachers with this level of Numeracy are not prepared normally to take a group of Basic Skills students. This has compounded into a chronic shortage of teachers in this area. Will the Government change its policy in this area to help meet the needs of the market?
>Margaret Hodge replies: We believe that it is important to establish and reinforce the principle that all FE teachers should be qualified to teach. By 2010 we would expect that only new entrants to FE teaching would not be qualified and they would be expected to achieve appropriate qualifications within two years of entry for full time staff and four years for part-time staff. From September 2002, new entrants to the teaching profession who wish to specialise in teaching Adult Literacy must, along with a recognised teaching qualification, work towards a Level 4 Certificate for Adult Numeracy Subject Specialists. We have no plans to change that arrangement because we want the learners to benefit from a high quality education experience. We also recognise that colleges need to be able to recruit and retain good quality staff. We introduced Golden Hellos and the Repayment of Teacher Loans Initiatives to enable colleges to recruit and retain staff in designated shortage subject areas. I am currently looking at whether we should add Basic Skills as a designated shortage subject to those two schemes. I hope to announce a decision on this soon.

Stephen FRY: Many thanks for the time - more of these please
>Margaret Hodge replies: Stephen - I've enjoyed talking to you and to all the other correspondents. We haven't had time to answer all your questions today, but we will put up on the website answers within the next week and keep the transcript on the site for the next few weeks. Thankyou.